“In Austria, it’s basically legal to spread Russian propaganda”: interview with disinformation expert Dietmar Pichler

Dietmar Pichler. Collage: Insight News, photo credit: Iryna Karpenko

“In Austria, it’s basically legal to spread Russian propaganda,” says Dietmar Pichler, a leading Austrian disinformation expert, head analyst at Inved.eu, and founder of the Vienna-based Disinfo Resilience Network.

In an interview with Insight News Media, Pichler spoke about the state of Russian disinformation in Austria, explaining how propaganda spreads through media, peace movements, and political networks.

— The media often describe Vienna as a hub of Russian intelligence in Europe. In your opinion, how does this intelligence presence contribute to the spread of Russian propaganda in Austria?

We need to understand that Vienna is really a kind of hub. When we talk about intelligence, we usually think about stealing information, about spying – you take some information, you bring it to another country, you steal it. But what we often don’t think about is that already during the Soviet Union, most KGB agents – or even Russian diplomats – had as their main purpose not just espionage, but the dissemination of propaganda and lobbying for Russian interests.

And lobbying can mean many things, but in the case of Russia, it means, of course, spreading Russian influence – not only within Austrian society but also within international organizations.

We have a lot of international organizations here, so Russian influence extends there as well. And sometimes, if you still think in this traditional way, you might see people taking notes and pretending to be pro-Ukrainian – and then you later find out they are actually connected to the Russian embassy.

So, we have these classic little stories as well, but of course, a lot of things happen behind closed doors. What we also have are agents of influence – people who are Westerners but work in favor of Russian interests. And we also have these so-called throwaway agents, who receive small payments, and recently our intelligence service discovered that there was even a group of organized foreign agents working against the interests of our country.

— Speaking more generally – and not only in the context of propaganda – what are Russia’s current objectives or goals in Austria? What is it trying to achieve through its different activities and measures?

I think the main goal is to once again have a more pro-Russian government, because at the moment our government is not pro-Russian. We have the most pro-Western government we’ve ever had. We have a very pro-Western foreign minister and a clear position on Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

And this is what they don’t like, because in the past we had parties that were much more Russia-friendly – and we still have a lot of this nostalgia among the population.

What you also need to understand about Austria, which is quite specific, is our neutrality. Today is actually our Independence Day, and everyone is talking about how our neutrality has changed – or hasn’t changed, or should become as it was before.

By law, we are neutral only in the military sense. That means, for instance, we cannot support Ukraine with weapons, and no military bases are allowed in Austria. Aside from that, politically, we were never neutral. Even during the Cold War, we were part of the West. But many people try to tell a different story – and this is exactly what the Russians do too. Medvedev, for example, directly attacked us. They try to intimidate us and pull us away from our current position.

And of course, the goal is clear – you know what happened in the Czech Republic, what we have with Viktor Orbán in Hungary, and with Fico in Slovakia. These are all countries bordering Austria. And Austria would be the first “older” Western country — not old, but older (part of the West after WW2) — that could potentially join this strange alliance.

And yes, I think this is exactly what the Russians are trying to achieve.

When you look at the other countries in the West, you see all these destabilizing trends and polarizations – we have them too. We’re not the most important country, but because we’re a member of the European Union, we’re not irrelevant either. You know, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link – and now, with Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Slovakia already leaning that way, if Austria were to change, it would become much easier to divide, fragment, and weaken the European Union.

— Currently, there’s a lot of discussion about a possible future peace deal that could stop Russia’s war against Ukraine. Do you know how Russia is trying to influence the debate in Austria regarding this potential peace deal?

There is no change in the discourse. In my opinion, it’s ridiculous, because when we listen to what the Russians say on their domestic propaganda TV, or when we hear their official positions – which they (the Russians) communicate quite openly on their own channels, including embassy channels – it’s very clear: they want to subjugate Ukraine. They want another government. They want Ukraine to be completely demilitarized. They want to destroyl Ukrainian culture and identity. They want Ukraine to become like Belarus. And they want at least five territories of Ukraine: Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, and Crimea.

But in Austria, people have no idea about this big picture – about the real scope of Russia’s demands, which for them are non-negotiable. This isn’t being communicated to the Austrian public. So people end up saying things like, “But Putin only wants Crimea.”

And I’m like, “What the hell? Ukrainians did not accept it, a large part of the world condemned it, but nobody really did anything about it. The same was true of the Russian (pseudo-)covert invasion of Donetsk and Luhansk in 2014. So, of course, it’s not just about that.”

And then we hear things like, “It’s only about Donbas,” which is also completely untrue.

And there are a lot of myths, and I think the biggest problem we have in Austria in this context is that we are really afraid of  NATO. For many of us, NATO is seen as a real boogeyman, the ultimate evil – and it’s not the alliance of autocrats that is actually threatening us, of course, but that distinction is completely lost.

And if you really hate NATO, then this narrative – that Russia had to defend itself against NATO enlargement, which wasn’t even happening in Ukraine – works very well, unfortunately.

It works in other countries too. For example, we see similar narratives with the new Irish president. Ireland is also a neutral country, so there’s a special vulnerability there. But in Austria, many people actually believe this. And then we have this clash – the same kind of clash as in Germany.

On one side, you have people who say Ukraine has every right to defend itself, that this is a full-scale war, and that Russia is imperialist. On the other side, you have people saying, “But it’s only about Russian security interests, they had their reasons, and the West…”

We don’t have a common analysis or understanding of Russian imperialism. We don’t fully report all the quotes from Putin, especially Medvedev, Dugin, Solovyov, or Simonian. We don’t show how Russian society really works, how it doesn’t respect the independence of its neighbors or their freedom. And this is a really big problem.

— What are the most influential outlets in Austria that are currently spreading Russian propaganda?

The problem is that we have two kinds of Russian propaganda. We have what we see online and what we see on social media — it’s really blatant, like “Putin had to…” and so on. And then we have subtle propaganda, like “Yeah, but what about NATO?” and “Russia was provoked,” and “The Global South sees things differently,” and “We should talk to China.”

I mean, we have a lot of delusions about China too. This is also ridiculous, in my opinion – that “China is a productive negotiator and they also don’t want the war.” Of course they love this war, and they hate the West – they hate the West just as much as Putin hates us.

So we have all this, and it’s happening even in our mainstream and established media. We have big problems in talk shows, where you often get these false balance panels – you have one person like me, who has a kind of objective and realistic view of what is happening, and then someone from the peace movement or a person who says, “We need to negotiate, we need to offer Putin something, meet him halfway – he’s not that bad,” and so on.

And then the audience can’t come to any sensible conclusion after that. So this is a big problem – we have it in the media, in universities. We have influential people who still go to RT. We have this false balance even in government advisory boards, among scientists, and it’s also present in school textbooks.

For instance, we had one schoolbook that was published – and I made it public, so they had to change it – where it said that the Ukrainian army attacked Russian citizens in the east of Ukraine. It was so absurd! I called them and said, “Come on, even RT wouldn’t make it that stupid and that blatantly propagandistic — they’d at least be smart enough to make it a bit more subtle.”

And we had such cases. In another one, the so-called “DNR/LNR” was mentioned in the same line as the independence movement in Scotland. Can you imagine? Comparing the independence movement in Scotland with the “DNR LNR”! And this was in a schoolbook – not on social media, not on RT or Russia 24, but an Austrian schoolbook.

What kind of internal Austrian issues does Russia use to advance its interests in Austria?

As I mentioned, we have a lot of discussions about the neutrality issue. I mean, there are people who say we need to talk about our neutrality, we need to talk about our security.

It’s not only about whether we join NATO or not, but we need to have an open discussion on how we develop, how we can be more aligned with our European partners, and we need to realize that we are a member of the European Union.

Even during the Cold War, it was clear that we were part of the West. So, they are really manipulating this. And this is, of course, what Russia likes, because then they can provoke us – they can play into this – and Medvedev did it recently.

Besides this neutrality topic, there’s nothing specific that I recall about our country. So, everything you know about the other countries – we have migration, we have energy issues, of course, energy prices, the economic situation – all of this contributes to a lot of anti-EU propaganda. They like those actors who blame the EU, as if the EU were some kind of boogeyman. They hate the European Union, they hate Kaja Kallas, they hate Ursula von der Leyen – so we have a lot of that.

But overall, I would say the neutrality discussion – our discourse about neutrality – is the main Austrian issue that makes our country different from others.

— Some studies show that German-language propaganda outlets, like Anti Spiegel and Report 24, also have readers in Austria. Do you know if these are mainly read by marginalized parties, like the far-right groups, or do they reach a broader audience?

We need to understand that Germany is the main target of Russian influence in Europe. It doesn’t matter whether it’s through propaganda or lobbying behind closed doors – they want to change Germany, because Germany is the most powerful country in the EU, especially economically.

And we have an issue because we also speak German. I mean, we have our own version of German – it’s officially our own language – but to be honest, it’s the same. We understand everything. We watch their TV, we read their websites, we can read their articles. Sometimes we don’t even know whether something was published in German or Austrian media.

And that brings me to the point – everything that Russia targets at Germany, we also see in Austria.

What I also learned from Ukrainian experts – and it was always quite obvious to me – is that Russian troll farms or propaganda campaigns use keywords. They track discussions. They say, “If you talk about Ukraine, if you talk about Russia, I’ll go there with my trolls and tell you that you’re wrong, and I’ll spread my narratives.” And we actually tested it.

We also saw a lot of troll attacks from the so-called Doppelganger campaign – they’re targeting us as well, because geography doesn’t matter online. In Germany, there’s a big problem with public TV: we see a lot of those false balance talk shows I mentioned earlier, with very questionable guests and so-called experts. They play a role in shaping the broader media environment, and what I’m really proud of is that, although we have our own problems in Austria, what’s happening on German TV is actually worse.

That has really become a problem for us, because there are so many pro-Russian commentators appearing on their talk shows – and we see them, we hear them. And what the Russian propaganda machine does is take quotes from those talk shows.

So you get content that comes from public TV – and everyone trusts public TV, even if they disagree with it. People still assume, “They’re real journalists.” Then this content is reposted on social media – on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, X, or Bluesky – and it gets shared over and over again. And of course, it reaches Austria too.

We have Austrian platforms that are read by people in Germany, so the influence goes both ways. And besides that, we also have Hungarian propaganda websites, operated from Hungary, that publish in German and target the German-speaking audience.

— Is there in Austria any legal regulation or law that can ban, or somehow restrict, media outlets that clearly spread Russian propaganda?

No, not at all. I mean, what we, of course, also supported was the ban of RT and Sputnik. But this was a political sanction — not an act of censorship. It was a sanction against the Russian regime because the EU recognized that these outlets are tools of the Kremlin.

There are still outlets that continue to operate, and of course, you can still access this content – there’s really nothing you can do about it. We even have Stalinist propaganda here, and that’s also not banned. The only exceptions are related to Nazi symbols or Holocaust denial – that’s strictly illegal. But besides that, unfortunately, almost everything is allowed.

Also, we don’t have a law in Austria against the Z symbol. It used to be a very important propaganda symbol of the Russian war machine, but now they don’t really use it anymore – probably because it became so ridiculous. The “three-day operation” has taken so long, and the Z just reminds them of a time when they thought it would all be over quickly. So I don’t see it that often anymore.

We had a Ukrainian exhibition in the center of Vienna, about the Ukrainian economy and culture. It was organized by the embassy and the cultural ministry, and someone sprayed a lot of Z symbols on it.

They eventually found the person who had done this, and it was acknowledged as just property damage. So there’s no specific law against this. I’ve tried to lobby for change, because in Germany there is a law against this kind of war propaganda, but in Austria, unfortunately, there isn’t.

I would say in Austria it’s basically legal to spread Russian propaganda.

But if you name the people who are spreading it, you might receive a letter from a lawyer demanding you stay silent, or even pay, because you’re supposedly damaging the reputation of the client. Unfortunately, that’s the situation we have here.

But it’s not only in Austria. I’ve heard similar stories from France and Germany. In Germany, even Russian government-aligned organizations have attacked journalists and tried to limit their reporting. So it’s the same problem.

— As far as I know, in the last governmental elections in Austria, the party that received the highest number of votes was far-right. However, as you mentioned, the government overall is very pro-Western. In your opinion, does the rise — or increased activity — of Russia-friendly media, platforms, or troll farms somehow correlate with the support for these far-right parties?

Generally speaking, it seems to me that since 2014, the Russian strategy has focused on supporting far-right movements in Europe, because they see a lot of potential there. In some cases, they’ve even entered into collaboration agreements or cooperate in various ways. What they also do is amplify these movements on social media – “If you start as a far-right politician, you can count on the trolls, and you know how the algorithms work.”

So this is really an issue. 

But what we also have – and this is unfortunately not discussed much – is the far-left. They haven’t changed at all since the Cold War; it’s the same people, even some of the same individuals. If you go back to 1982, there was a very, very large rally in Austria… Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets to protest the Pershing II rockets – nuclear warheads by the Americans. They didn’t want them in Europe. Austria wasn’t even directly involved; it was mainly about Germany, but Austrians felt they needed to speak up as well.

What they didn’t protest, however, were the SS-20 missiles (RSD-10 Pioneer) by the Soviet Union.

So historically, the peace movement was always anti-Western and pro-Soviet – and today, it’s largely pro-Russian.

Many – not all, but many – of the same people who rallied in 1982 against American rockets are now rallying for the EU to stop supporting Ukraine in its fight against Russia.

And it’s the same people, the same strategy, the same kind of influence – the same networks. It never really stopped. I know it might sound a bit like a conspiracy theory, but it’s not – we actually have the data.

We know, for example, that the World Peace Council was a KGB-influenced organization. We know there was significant Soviet funding and infiltration, and that the KGB was heavily involved.

We also know about individuals who were paid by the KGB or the East German Stasi, and these movements – along with their ideology, some of them are still active..

I once spoke to a man from an Austrian peace organization who still holds that same ideology. I know about him that when he was young, he even visited North Korea, and he admitted that back then “it came from the East” (Soviet Union, GDR…) — about the present, he did not tell me anything.

Of course, it’s not different. These far-left anti-Western networks remain very dangerous. And now, we even see collaboration between the far-left and the far-right. For example, also the anti-vaccine movement is deeply connected with these circles. In fact, for us, the anti-vaxxers and the pro-Russian activists are basically the same people – 99% overlap.

So you can really see it – when I was in Ukraine in 2021, during the pandemic, people asked me, “What can we do? We have anti-vaxxers.” And I said, just tell them that anti-vaxxers means pro-Russian, because in Austria and in Germany it’s exactly the same. We already knew it back then. They had their rallies, and after the start of the full-scale invasion, they started to march with Russian flags.

So, we have a lot of people who are against the West, against NATO, against the European Union –  and they are amplified and supported by Russia, along with a lot of so-called “experts” and the peace movement.

The peace movement is something you really need to take a deep look at if you want to understand Russian influence – because it started during the Cold War and it still very much exists today. I have to add that of course many people from the old peace movement during the Cold War were simply naive and genuinely had peace in mind. They were not aware of the direction the movement was taking or how manipulated it was.

The ideology of pacifism offers great advantages to an aggressor when the call for pacifism is directed only at the defender. Much of the information I have about the peace movement comes from people who were once part of it but later distanced themselves after realizing how one sided it was. Some did so already in the 1980s, others only after the start of the full scale invasion.

The aim of many so-called “peace activists” or “peace researchers” is not only to block military aid to Ukraine but also to stop the rearmament of European Union countries.